The Saints That Serve Podcast
Welcome to The Saints That Serve Podcast!
Where each week, your hosts dive into the crossroads of faith, culture and the unknown.
Christ is Lord and the Kingdom is now!
We are The Saints That Serve!
The Saints That Serve Podcast
Episode 38 - Fantasy: Friend or Foe?
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What happens when faith meets fantasy?
In this episode, we explore the deep connection between Christianity and fantasy storytelling—from the works of George MacDonald and Tolkien to Harry Potter and beyond.
We unpack the difference between high fantasy (like Middle-earth) and low fantasy (like Narnia), discuss how Christian authors have used magical worlds to reflect spiritual truths, and tackle big questions around witchcraft, discernment, and entertainment choices.
Plus, we dive into dragons in mythology and the Bible, surprising box office hits, and fantasy video games that shape culture today. Whether you're a lifelong fan or a cautious skeptic, this episode offers a thoughtful, faith-filled guide to navigating the world of fantasy.
#FaithAndFantasy #ChristianPodcast #FantasyAndFaith #BiblicalWorldview #ChristianMedia #Tolkien #CSLewis #GeorgeMacDonald #MiddleEarth #Narnia #HarryPotterDebate #FantasyFiction #ChristianPerspective #FaithInCulture #ChristianDiscernment #SeekFirstTheKingdom #SpiritualTruths #DragonsInTheBible #ChristianGamers #MagicAndMorality #FantasyDebate #BiblicalMythology
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Welcome to Saints That Serve
Speaker 2Welcome to the Saints that Serve , podcast where , each week , your hosts dive into the crossroads of faith , culture and the unknown .
Speaker 1Christ is Lord and the kingdom is now . We are the Saints that Serve . Hey everybody , welcome to the Saints that Serve podcast . That's the Saints .
Speaker 2That Serve podcast .
Speaker 1Yeah , boy , saints that serve podcast . That's the saints that serve podcast . Yeah , boy , and this is episode 38 . 38 baby . Wow , we're getting up there in age , aren't we getting ?
Speaker 2old , that's right , we're almost 40 . We're like a fine wine , though Aged .
Speaker 1Aged . And Is that the perfect age for a wine ? 38 years , yeah , perfect yeah for American wine , yeah , yeah . So everybody savor us like a fine 38-year-old wine .
Speaker 2Savor us like a fine Tennessee mountain wine .
Speaker 1Tennessee mountain wine . Tennessee mountain wine . Yeah man , it's been a minute .
Speaker 2It has been a minute . For those of you who don't know , we bulk recorded three episodes and then Jairus departed for another country for a week . It was more than a week .
Speaker 1Yeah , you're right , it was more than a week . Yeah , you're right , it was more than a week , it was eight days . So one week and one day . Yeah , we went to Little Foggy , france Town .
Speaker 2Little Foggy , France Town . That sounds like an indie game or an indie band or an indie band Little Foggy .
Speaker 1France Town , little Foggy , france Town . It's a tongue twister too , a little bit that's crazy , uh , but yeah , but now you're back . I am back now he's back in the atmosphere , easy , easy we don't want to get copy striked , copyright strike , for how spot on that was tell me , do you want to ? I don't even remember the lyrics ?
Speaker 2yeah , it it's . It's a little blah , blah , blah , blah and then , and then you know it's like a couple words , then it's not yeah , it's like you get a couple coherent words and then a lot of blah , blah , blah , blah for me , I , I couldn't do it word for word .
Speaker 1Tell me .
Speaker 2Shooting star Taking the time to dance , crying .
Speaker 1It'll be weak . I don't know what is the best mumble singer . Like a band to you that . Like they're saying something , but we all know good and well Whatever they're saying . Like you don't know . Like they're saying something , but we all know good and well whatever they're saying . Like you don't know what they're saying .
Speaker 2Um is it ? I think it's dave matthews . Dave matthews , yeah , uh , I don't want to be with you . That's dave matthews , right , yeah , yeah . And who sings Evenflow ?
Speaker 1That was mine , it was Pearl Jam . Yeah , he's saying something , but no one knows . No one knows what he's saying .
Speaker 2No , never mind , you didn't watch it . There's an episode in a community where they like bring up dave matthews band a bunch , but it's like only his true fans call him dave . I personally know him . I can't say the title of the episode because it has a naughty word in it , but basically someone's going around the school dropping quarters down people's pants . Shit Like in their butt cracks Easy , easy yeah . But they play it out like it's a CSI episode . It's so funny , dude . But yeah , there's Dave Matthews in that a lot . So that's what I thought of when I thought of Dave Matthews . Anyways , do you got any announcements ?
Speaker 1Just that . If you want to see us do a wonderful worship night , live stream , tune in this Friday .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1I knew I was going to throw that on you and you're going to be like , is it ?
Speaker 2Yeah , it is .
Speaker 1It is . It is June 6th .
Speaker 2Yep , and it will start at 630 , and then the worship will go live at 7 .
Speaker 1That's right , so tune in to that on Facebook . No , not Facebook , not yet Everybody . If you are listening to this episode and you haven't liked us and you haven't liked us on Facebook , go like us on Facebook , because we have to be over 100 followers on Facebook to be able to live stream on Facebook . Yep , but we will live stream on Facebook . Yep , but we will be live on YouTube and Twitch , god willing , if nothing messes up .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1We had issues last time where it was working on Twitch but YouTube it was not working .
Speaker 2Yeah , it was glitching on YouTube for some reason , but Twitch was just fine , which is weird , yeah , but that's okay . It's okay , mm-hmm .
Speaker 1So trip talk real quick . Okay , more about the plane ride . Okay , it was so annoying to be on Like again . First world problems . Yes , I went to like Europe on a wonderful trip Like it was me and my wife's uh , our honeymoon not well , one year after our honeymoon and now our feature presentation go ahead , so , but you know , uh , it's our anniversary , one year anniversary trip and you know I'm blessed to be able to go to somewhere like europe yeah , you know like and be blessed with a wonderful wife yes but complaints ?
Speaker 1um no , the on board movie , uh , situation was really weird where , like it would play the movie for one minute and then just freeze and then like for like 10 seconds she would lose the movie and that would be through the whole movie on every movie . And I was looking around and it's like it's happening to everybody .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Like on a watching Ashley's screen and it just like it would pause and you'd have to go back . But , like you know how , like it'll give you , like , the option to go back a couple of seconds Mm-hmm , it was only 30 seconds to go back , so you'd have to watch would then skip and maybe you would luckily get the part you missed . Yeah , and if , like , you're watching something stupid it was , you know , okay , whatever , I missed something , yeah , but that's not how I watch movies . I gotta know what's going on what , uh ?
Speaker 2what airline did you guys fly ? It was air france oh , that's oh . Man should have known that one .
Speaker 1Mm-hmm , but I watched Dark Shadows , the Johnny Depp movie . Oh yeah , the Tim Burton Vampire one , right Vampire one . Yeah , I wouldn't watch that . I wouldn't recommend it .
Speaker 2Yeah , because it's got vampire vibes , because he is a vampire Mm-hmm , but it's more so like love triangles , right ?
Speaker 1Yeah , it was weird , it was overly naughty .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , after that , I'm like I just played my Switch . The rest of the flight , the eight-hour flight jeez , I was just like I tried to watch another movie . I'm like this is too annoying , all the skipping . Jeez , I was just like I can't . I tried to watch another movie . I'm like this is this is too annoying , all the skipping . Yeah , so I know that got a little off track there . Air France , everybody , air France , go ahead and go complain and try to get them to fix their buffering issue . Yeah , but yeah , everybody . Tune in Friday , this Friday , for our third worship night live stream . Yep .
Speaker 2Also , if you need prayer , feel free to reach out to us . We pray every Friday for you guys , and you can reach out to us at our email address , which is saints
The Origins of Fantasy Literature
Speaker 2that serve at gmailcom , and that's saints that servehatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatsthatst . So I think that's it for the announcements , right , mm-hmm . So I guess we need to get into what our topic is tonight .
Speaker 1So , tyler , this is your topic . Tyler , this is your transition into the main topic . We're going to bring you downtown , which is so funny . How polar opposite . The main topic is to sports .
Speaker 2Yep , yep , we , we're gonna ease back , we're gonna relax , we're gonna pretend that we're all nestled around a table , fire blazing in the background , we're all enjoying bread , fresh baked loaf of bread and a beverage , and we're discussing the fantastic adventures we've all had together . And now we're going to take that atmosphere and talk about how we read it in a book somewhere .
Speaker 1So I'm going to need you to roll that d20 for initiative . All right , here we go . Are you ready ? Yeah , what does it say ?
Speaker 2I got a 17, . Baby , you failed . All right episode over . That's the end of the episode . No , we are talking about the genre fantasy , fantasy Fantasy . We're going to be discussing the books , the movies , games .
Speaker 1So so last , not last week , geez . Uh , we got on our little cult um kick there for a couple episodes , but I think right before that we didn't do it .
Speaker 2No , it was one episode . We talked about the catholic church and then we talked about Scientology . Like I said , the cold- .
Speaker 1No , I'm kidding , I'm kidding , I'm kidding . But no , before that you better be careful . Pope Leo may come and get you , he might . He is from Boston , he is the- . I thought it was Detroit . Oh , he's Northern American , northern Only .
Speaker 2Pope who's pro-Second Amendment ?
Speaker 1There you go . He's got my vote . I don't know that I was part of the conclave . He got my vote , but no , if you want to go back a couple episodes , we had a science fiction episode . Yes , we did so . Now we're going to have a fantasy episode . Yes , we are , we're going to going to have a fantasy episode .
Speaker 2Yes , we are , we're going to get into it and I know you've got notes , I do , and I've got some notes too . But I just want to clear the air , all right , because when I was doing research for this , like the origin of fantasy right as a genre , everyone was like you could relate it back to the ancient stories of old , like that's actually what my notes , or the arthurian legends .
Speaker 1Let me read my notes just my line yeah , go ahead I'm gonna read that it's , it's , and then you're gonna completely uh bash it what I'm about to say , but go for it , uh . Fantasy has its earliest roots in mythology , folklore and religious texts . Stories like the epic of gilgamesh , homer's odyssey , north sagas and arthurian legends feature magical creatures , gods , epic quests and heroic destinies . Yes , these tales laid the foundation for fantasies , recurring themes , the battle between good and evil , the hero's journey and the existence of magical realms yeah .
Speaker 2So I just want to say that those first two are in , like almost all types of literature yes , yes , um , but okay , fantasy there's .
Speaker 2There's two basically like main sub-genres under the genre of fantasy there's high fantasy and there's low fantasy right high fantasy , being tolkien if like tolkien and like wheel of time , where you , the , you're taken to a whole other world and it has these fantastical magical creatures and all the different things , right . Adventure and bizarre things , right . And then low fantasy is things like CS Lewis and JK Rowling's Harry Potter which , in our world , it's modern day or close-ish to modern day , it's modern . No , it doesn't have to do with time , it has to do with reality . Well , that's .
Speaker 1Sorry , that's what I was trying to say . I just can't say it correctly it has to do with .
Speaker 2They're taking inspiration from our reality , using existing things from our reality and then incorporating the fantastic into it A lot of times .
Speaker 1like you said , the Harry Potter , where somebody living a normal human life then being flung into this world magically .
Speaker 2Correct and same with CS Lewis , right , cs Lewis is the Chronicles of Narnia , the Chronicles . What Of Narnia ? Because of Narnia , the Chronicles . What Of Narnia ? The different people are living in the world and then they're brought into this fantastic universe that parallels with our world . So it's kind of a hybrid of the two .
Speaker 1It's funny too , because a lot of times it feels like , at least in the two examples we gave , for sure it's not only are these people being flung into the world with low fantasy , it's that they are the chosen one , the , the special picked out heroes of this new found world that they are now a part of yeah , yeah , they this , this is true , but that's because they're the main character .
Speaker 1Yeah , you know so you never have a story where the main character is like actually really doesn't do anything . You know , that's just not how stories work .
Speaker 2Yeah , stories are . You know , you kind of follow the main character , it's whatever .
Speaker 1I'm writing a fantasy story where a janitor gets thrown into a fantasy world and all he does is clean up after the heroes of the world . Anime does that a lot the way . Yeah , like there's a whole uh genre right now in anime called izakai , where it's essentially somebody being . A lot of times it's they die and then they're reborn in a new world , and so it's . But a lot of times they remember their knowledge from being human in the human world , and so it's everywhere .
Speaker 2Isekais are massive right now , creatures or characters being flung into our world and our reality and having to try and accomplish mundane tasks like using a fax machine or ordering something at a drive-thru or you know , like things like that that we just do .
Speaker 1Does anything like that come to mind , or is that an idea you just came up with ? Because that's really funny .
Speaker 2I have seen like things that kind of toe the line with it , Like that the Netflix movie Bright oh yeah . You know like they take a modern spin on a mythical world right , but they incorporate heavily from just what our society looks like today right , yeah , so it's more of a city deal . Yeah , it's , it's high , it's high , it's fantasy intertwined with , you know , the urban modern day yes , setting yeah , and so it's like , you see , yeah , like , so you see , like you know . Uh , I'm trying to think of something from the movie .
Speaker 1Like orcs , like integrated into you know .
Speaker 2Orcs getting on a bus and taking a bus ride . Enchanted , that's a comedy . The Disney film , right . The Disney film , yes , where the Disney princess gets flung into the animated Disney princess gets flung into the real world , yeah , so that's kind of funny . I can't think of anything else right now there's probably plenty like .
Speaker 2I couldn't think any in the new named two , so I'm sure there's more where it's this person who there is one where it's park rangers at a park
High Fantasy vs. Low Fantasy
Speaker 2and a troop of orcs from a fantasy world come through basically a wormhole into this national park , and so the park rangers have to fight off this band of orcs . So so it is a comedy , yeah , but uh it .
Speaker 1I mean it is funny because they're fighting orcs and like well so I got confused because I thought you were talking about your son , because that's his code name is Park Ranger .
Speaker 2Oh yeah .
Speaker 1I'm like , what are you talking about ?
Speaker 2No , no , no , no , no , like actual National Park Rangers , and you know they've got shotguns and they're like shooting these birds . Anyways , I can't remember what the name of that movie is , though , so I can't if y'all know what he's talking about .
Speaker 1Uh , please leave us a comment in the comic section about what uh movie john's talking about , because I'd like to see that , or is it ? Was it a show , a movie ? It was a movie . It was like a b-list , a b-rated film and it was like park rangers defending the park from orcs who are coming through portals . Correct , okay , yes , all right , putting y'all uh to the test in the comic section I think you can find it on prime video .
Speaker 1I believe that's where I watched it I believe you just made that all up and you made that all up , uh , yeah , so that's pretty funny .
Speaker 2And and then , like you know , the Dawn of the Dead , like the first one where the guy gets sucked into a fantasy world with his car .
Speaker 1Are you thinking of the Evil Dead ? Maybe that's what I'm thinking of , because Dawn of the Dead is the one where they're trapped in the with the zombies in the mall . So maybe it's the Evil Dead , and that is the second Evil Dead movie .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1Where he gets thrown in . Yes , yeah , yeah , the Army of Darkness . I think it's called Army of Darkness . It's not actually called the Evil Dead New tab on the computer . Army of Bruce Hamill , hamble Campbell , bruce Campbell , I was close .
Speaker 2Yes , army of Darkness , he's got his shotgun . I believe it's a Winchester . And then , yeah , he's got the chainsaw arm and his car . I can't remember what his car is , but he gets thrown into this fantasy world that's facing this shroud of darkness .
Speaker 1Do you know what the famous catchphrase is from that movie ?
Speaker 2No .
Speaker 1There's a famous line what is it ? This is my boomstick showing all of the people in the fantasy world his shotgun . Oh okay , he's like . He's like I like , essentially saying this is my magic wand , but it's just a shotgun I've never heard that line , really .
Speaker 2Yeah , the only the big one that comes to mind for me when you talk about older movies is that one movie where it's like it's interdimensional or alien beings , but they're disguised and so if you wear the glasses you can see them . I can't remember what the name of the movie is .
Speaker 1That is oh , man , I know exactly he's like .
Speaker 2I'm here to chew bubble gum and kick butt and I'm all out of bubblegum yeah , yeah what was it ?
Speaker 1I know exactly what you're talking about , but that's more , but that's .
Speaker 2You know what that's along the sci-fi realm .
Speaker 1That movie's actually not that old , by the way . No , it's like late 80s , early 90s , yeah , but it's black and white . The whole film is black and white , so it makes you think it's older than it is .
Speaker 1No , it's not it's not black and white everything I've ever seen is that movie's black and white , really . Yeah , oh , I've seen it in color . You know that they have it's a wonderful life in color and that movie's really old . They do , yeah , me and ashley getting a little christmas talk here , but real quick on amazon prime . They have it's a wonderful life , where they re did the whole movie in color instead of black and white .
Speaker 2That's pretty neat .
Speaker 1I know they can do that because I mean they've got the they just have to go frame by frame and color in each frame like a picture to essentially restore the movie into a color format . It has a very specific look to it , like a kind of a faded color , but there is color to it and it really actually adds to the movie .
Speaker 2Yeah , that got really big with the World War II documentaries . I remember that being a thing like everyone's like World War II in color , yeah , and you're just like I get the idea in black and white . You know what I mean .
Speaker 1And I'm about to bring it around full circle , but do you know who made one of those World War II Peter Jackson Really , mm-hmm , whoa , I think that was like he was the one who did that and that kind of started that craze that is crazy Mm-hmm .
Speaker 2So , talking about Peter Jackson , let's get into this fantasy , back into fantasy , back into fantasy , back into fantasy . So , from what my research , from what I was seeing to me , fantasy starts around . High fantasy starts with George MacDonald . And what did he do With his stories of the feisties and the princess and the goblin Princess and the goblin Princess and the goblin ? That's like the biggest book he wrote . What year did that come out ? I don't have the note for it , but I believe it was like 18 . I don't know , but he's like a . He's a really big .
Speaker 1Oh , I have it in my notes .
Speaker 2You got the date .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's . What is it Fantasties you said ?
Speaker 2Fantasties is like yeah , some books that he's .
Speaker 1So it's 1858 . Okay , fantasties and lilith by george mcdonald .
Speaker 2so lilith I'm still confused about , because so it's a love story , but lilith is also a figure in ancient jewish lore . She's a demon , lilith , and jewish , like culture , says that , uh , she was adam's second wife after the fall . Him and eve separate for a time and he partners up with this lady named lilith , or this demonic person named lilith , and and they had , they have offspring , and then he's able to rekindle things with eve , and that's in jewish that is .
Speaker 2Yeah , that is folklore or ancient tradition , I guess you could say . But from that point on there's been this idea I shouldn't say idea , it's the spirit of Lilith or a demonic force , and they'll use the term Lilith and it has to do with . I'm not going to get into what it has to do with , but that's why it's confusing to me that this Christian minister who writes fantasy books , he wrote a love story and he named it Lilith .
Speaker 1I was just like and wait , but Lilith has actually nothing to do with the Jewish folklore , it's just in name .
Speaker 2Correct . Okay , to my understanding it is totally the only thing that it has connected to it is the name , that's it . But anyways , the Princess and the Goblin came out in 1872 . That's when he released the book Gotcha , and his work with the Princess and the Goblin is what is inspiration for Lewis Carroll ? His inspiration for Lewis Carroll , mm-hmm . And they actually talk about how George MacDonald kind of like mentored one-on-one Lewis Carroll .
Speaker 1Really Lewis Carroll like would come to MacDonald's house and like hang out with him .
Speaker 2Ba-da-ba-ba-ba and he shared like they motivated him to actually publish Alice Mm-hmm and he shared , like they motivated him to actually publish Alice .
Speaker 1So yeah , if no , I was going to say , if no one knows who Lewis Carroll is , they wrote Alice's Adventures in Wonderland . So Alice in Wonderland .
Speaker 2Yeah , did I say did I say he , I believe Lewis Carroll's the girl .
Speaker 1That's why I said they . I was like I'm not sure , I think it's a person . Yeah , it's a lady . It's .
Speaker 2it's a lady I'm sorry guys , I think wait , oh , hold on . No , it's a man . Okay , the picture that showed up it was very feminine looking it was . Yeah , it was . It was a little feminine . I was like , wait a minute , what ? And then , yeah , it's a gentleman . Yeah , that's what threw me for a loop is because I saw the picture and I was like , maybe it is a girl , but I always remember alice in wonderland being written by a man anyways lewis , carol .
Speaker 1yeah , what is weird , because lewis is a man's name but and I guess we call like , carol is a , like it's two . Yeah , yeah , the last thing you hear two first names , yeah .
Speaker 2But yeah , so he , yeah , he actually would like spend time with the McDonald's , and they motivated him to actually publish his work , alice .
Speaker 1You said McDonald's .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , so uh . But then later on he also was the inspiration for two pillars in the fantasy novel genre , and those two pillars are cs , lewis and jr to .
Speaker 1Yeah , which is funny because , like I'm sure , a lot of people see those two people as the the start , even though it's really not , you know . Yeah , let me read this real quick . So , like we just discussed , you know , the 19th century saw fantasy take shape in literary fiction , with works like Fantasies and Lilith by George McDonald , alice Adventures in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll and the Wonderful Wizard of Oz by L Frank Baum .
Speaker 2Yeah , I don't know a whole lot about Frank Baum , but yeah , I do know that that was a big one .
Speaker 1These stories brought whimsy and surrealism to children's literature , but also hinted at the deeper themes . Yes , which , like you said , really the big ones are CS Lewis and Tolkien .
Speaker 2Yeah , and it's important , these guys , they drew inspiration from a multitude of things , but they both acknowledge that a lot of their inspiration for writing fantasy came from the Princess and the Goblin , written by George MacDonald .
Speaker 1It's so interesting to me this like these people all knew each other type kind of thing . Well , not not necessarily directly with all of them , but it's just like there is a a line , that kind of more closely knit line , that doesn't really exist today . Yeah , in inspiration and connections , in creators , yeah , where it's like , yeah , lewis went to McDonald's house and you know , like you don't hear about these , like I guess you'd kind of do in music and creation , but I guess there's so much out there today . Yeah , but back then there wasn't as much .
Speaker 2So it was the 1800s into the 1900s was happening in very specific places , you know , and so like , because here anyone can get on the computer around the world , like . I know it's harder in certain places than others , but we've gotten to the point to where you can hop into an internet cafe in most countries of the world and jot down your thoughts and post them on the internet . And they're there , you know . But you know , back in the 1800s , 1900s you wrote by hand what you wanted and then you had to put a lot of work into getting it to publishers and they had to acknowledge or accept it and then put it through a printing press and then distribute it .
Speaker 1Yeah , there wasn't probably a lot of printing presses , so the people who are writers probably more flocked around or gathered around places that allowed them to publish their works .
Speaker 2Yeah , a lot of people that are writing , especially extracurricular things like this . They tend to move towards things like either clergy professions or education or education , and so they're at these colleges or universities and they're all sharing ideas and passing ideas around . Or , yeah , they're a part of the cloth , if you will , they're a minister of some kind and so their writings are getting passed . Because not a lot of people are reading .
Harry Potter and Christian Perspectives
Speaker 2Like in the 1800s , early 1900s , majority of the world's still illiterate , so only the educated , there's only a handful of people that are educated , and so it's like , if you're writing something just to write it , there's only like a handful of people that can read it . So your stuff's getting passed back and forth and ideas are getting bounced off each other . But it's not like today , where reading has been pushed so hard that in first world countries most people can read . You know , maybe not well , but they can read .
Speaker 2I did want to bring up because in my research someone brought up Bram Stoker , the author of Dracula . Yeah , uh , and that is . I would not consider Dracula fantasy . No , it is . It is horror , it's horror . But they someone used this specific term , victorian Gothic horror and they put Bram Stoker's Dracula in that I think they put Frankenstein in that Frankenstein's monster .
Speaker 2Yeah , there's a wolf man . There's a couple other ones , but , like you know , they're not introducing the fantastic , magical universe that's either in our world or in a whole other world .
Speaker 1No , it focused on one evil entity ominous undefeatable entity , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2Well , maybe not undefeated , but you know what I mean . Like , yeah , it's an ominous character that seems supernatural yeah , the titular character is typically the villain . Whoa , look at that term titular character .
Speaker 1I know I read a book in the 1800s .
Speaker 2Whoa , I went back and talked .
Speaker 1I know how to read . So , anyways , yeah , so we've been mainly talking about books , but one that we've got to bring up is harry potter by jk rowling . I thought you're going to say real cool , but before we talk about that , let's . We talked about the pillars , which is tolkien . He wrote the hobbit , lord of the rings , probably some of the most you know deep , convoluted storytelling . You know just planning around a world to tell a story and just the lore so deep , just the deepest of high fantasy and he did it all for Gondor .
Speaker 2No , he did it for himself .
Speaker 1Yeah , and his son .
Speaker 2Yeah , we'll just say that .
Speaker 1And then CS Lewis wrote the Chronicles of Narnia . What Of Narnia ? I think we said that earlier , but just to reiterate CS .
Speaker 2Lewis actually wrote a handful of stuff and people are unaware of a lot of his other writings . But like he wrote a sci-fi trilogy and he wrote a , um wrote another book . That kind of falls in the line of fantasy , kind of falls in the line of sci-fi , but it's more spiritual focused . So it's called the uh , I've got to look it up because I forgot what it's called . But basically it's playing on Christian concepts and kind of dealing with the idea of , like the great divorce .
Speaker 2That's what I'm thinking of the great divorce , where it's like a bunch of people . It's kind of the idea is a bunch of people die and they're taken off and they're taken to the same place and it's kind of hard . But as they travel further and further it gets better and better and better and the idea is that the people that like find it tough and hard and just set , stop and give up there . They're in their hell . But as people keep progressing and pushing forward , the , the bondage is released and they get closer and closer to the idea of heaven or or the Lord . So , um it is . It is a pretty interesting concept .
Speaker 2But in that book I don't remember when I read it , I don't remember this being in there , but I guess it is he actually gives a ? Um tribute to george mcdonald . One of george mcdonald's it's the unpreached or unspoken sermons , I think is what his book's called , and so cs lewis actually refers to something in that book , to in his book the great divorce so y'all heard , heard it here first folks , you can be christian , write fantasy and it'd be good yeah , uh , but , yeah , but .
Speaker 2But harry potter , uh , but yeah , but , but harry potter . Harry potter is probably the no , not probably it is the most copies sold book . Fantasy book is harry potter . Harry potter is low fantasy , right . So if you're just doing fantasy in general , har , harry Potter takes the cake with most copies sold . But if you separate the two genres into high and low fantasy , cs Lewis' the Lord of the Rings has the most copies sold . Say that .
Speaker 1ARR .
Speaker 2Tolkien's Lord of the Rings has the most copies sold . That was not for Gondor .
Speaker 1That was not for Gondor . That was not for Gondor , that was for Aslan .
Speaker 2That was , yeah , that was for Aslan . I don't have a want , want , want , anyways , but yeah , so Harry Potter is really up there and that is very recent , because Harry Potter was released in the late 1990s was released in the late 1990s 98 , I believe 99 , possibly when the first book came out . Yep , and it's so new it's still controversial .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's amazing . I mean I was talking to you about it . You know me and Ashley , when we went on our European trip , we went and saw the Harry Potter and the Cursed Child and in that , even being a stage play that's more recent , has worldly hidden undertones in that as well . So what I would say ? A lot of controversial stuff .
Speaker 2Yeah yeah , yeah , it is unfortunate . That's unfortunate , but I think people have said that JK Rowling , who's the author of Harry Potter , claims to be Christian . I say it that way because I don't personally know , but allegedly she practices faith in some way or another .
Speaker 1The problem with that is saying that you practice faith is such a wide casted net of a statement . It could mean anything .
Speaker 2Yeah . Well , the reason I bring it up is because that is an argument that people use Christians use to justify why they're comfortable with reading the books and watching the movies . Because , like , yes , there is , it is focused on magic , but the author is a christian and is using redemptive Christological concepts in the story . So that's why , if you take it for just the story , it's great , but if you're focused on all the extra fluff , then yeah , it's not that great . Extra fluff , then yeah , it's not that great . So that's the argument used for Christians reading Harry Potter and watching Harry Potter .
Speaker 1That's the problem too , is JK Rowling ruling , whatever you call it , however you say it , however you want to say it , however you want to say it , a lot of the worldly inappropriate things that is coming out from harry potter is all these things that came out after the books had come out . Yeah , like , like you said , like her wanting to incorporate and keep attention on her property for an extended amount of time , and it's like oh , this hidden detail , or this hidden detail this is what this actually meant after the publication of the books , retconning a lot of stuff . Harry Potter had no concerns when it came to inappropriate worldly things , just the witchcraft aspect to it . I'm not defending it in that sense , but it was a lot of things that came out afterwards . What I feel like is a lot of changes made to get attention back on the property , purposely creating those controversies . Yeah , because even now , things that she is saying is creating controversies around her , um , her property , to get eyes on it yeah .
Speaker 2So yeah , I don't know . I I mean I've seen the movies . I haven't read the books . I've seen the movies and I mean they're all right as far as an overall story . Uh , we just come back around to what ?
Speaker 1because we've talked about harry potter in the past yeah , I feel like that's like , besides lord of the rings , we come back to harry potter a lot in our conversation coming up , but you know it is that deal .
Speaker 2it's like Coming up , but you know it is that deal ?
Speaker 2It's like has . So everything about it revolves around magic , specifically in the witchcraft and divination . And so you know , as Christians , we get in the Bible where God says have nothing to do with it . And it's like okay , don't practice magic , don't partake of magic . And the concern with Harry Potter is that is because it's so fun to get into the storyline , get in with the characters and pretend people will , they'll buy wands , they'll walk around in robes and they'll pretend to cast spells or do different things , incantations because they want to be immersed in the story of Harry Potter . And that's taking it too far , like pretending to practice magic . Yeah , you don't realize what door you're opening .
Speaker 1Right , you know , like you might be repeating these things from these movies that they're saying , but you don't know what you're saying .
Speaker 2Well , and that's the thing is . People argue like well , it's Latin , like they're just saying Latin stuff and it doesn't mean anything , it's like that's great and all but it . The reality is you don't practice magic , you don't practice witchcraft , so you don't actually know what they use and what they say for their incantations and for what they do . And and what if it's not just , what if it's less of what you say and more of what you do ? The intent behind of what you're saying , the intent in the physical action , right , the atmosphere that you're creating , does that introduce , does that open doors to a force that is waiting for an opening to get in ? You know an opening to get in . You know .
Speaker 2So , as christians , you know what holy spirit convict you and guide you in what you need to do , in all things , in holiness , um , but when it comes to fantasy , from harry potter
Fantasy Movies and Box Office Success
Speaker 2to lord of the rings , practicing magic , meaning incantations , witchcraft , divination , and these are all fun words to say , right , they're very poetic . But things like Ouija boards , things like wands , things like declaring curses over people , all those things are from a posture of magic and we're to have nothing to do with that . So as as believers . So keep that in mind . I mean , even with the Lord of the Rings , like there's , there's not really a whole lot of incantations to be able to quote the Lord of the Rings or divination stuff , but still you need to be careful when it comes to magic .
Speaker 1Because there is things that are alluded to that are magic in those books and plus , didn't you tell me one time I feel like maybe I'm going to butcher this but Gandalf isn't really doing magic , right ? Like , if you get into the deep lore of Lord of the Rings , it's not magic or witchcraft that he is practicing , right , Because that is a wizard who is portrayed in the movies as doing magic .
Speaker 2So what Tolkien did is truly high fantasy . He created a completely different universe and used concepts from Mars , because this is the only one we've got right . So he used things that were relatable to us or that we would have an understanding of , but he truly did create an alternate universe . So you know , some people groups consider the wizards wizards with magical powers , and that's within the world , that's , within the world , and then other , the Lord of the Rings world .
Speaker 1Lord of the .
Speaker 2Rings world and even in Lord of the Rings . Each race of the Rings world and and even in Lord of the Rings , each race of people have their own kind of magic that they use or that they have within them . That's just a part of their , their life . Like the elves have their own kind of elven magic and they use it in their arts and in their crafts , and it's the same for the dwarves . The dwarves have their own kind of magic that they use in their smithing and in their crafting . Men have their own kind of magic . The dark lord , saruman and in his superior , morgoth , they have their own kind of dark magic , right , and so everything has their own thing , and the term is used magic for this supernatural force , but it's not really in magic in the way that we are talking about witchcraft yeah , it's not necessarily not all of it would be like compared to witchcraft .
Speaker 2When you get into the dark magic stuff that would be more along the lines of like witchcraft , incantation , necromancy , stuff , right , right .
Speaker 2So in in the books it's kind of like cut and dry , like , hey , the bad magic is things that you do to hone in your ability and your skill . In all the other magic it's default , like it's just a part of who you are . That's what makes it a magical realm is . The idea is like these people are not like create , like reading the books to get better at their kind of magic . It's just a part of who they are and they use it in their different skills to increase the skills , not to increase the magic . Does that make sense ? Yeah , so that's the idea . And so , yeah , the wizards , they're what you could relate to like an angelic entity that's sent down to the world , to middle earth , to be helpers to the forces of good to overcome the forces of evil . So they're more so angelic or demigod-like characters and they do have supernatural abilities , but it comes from their magical song that they sing , from the creator uh ulevata , who created all things in this song that he started singing , and it brought all things into creation .
Speaker 2So you know it's . There's a lot . Yeah , there's a lot , but I guess that's what I'll get at , is it ? There is the idea of witchcraft and everything that has to go with that , but it is very clearly like don't do that , like that's what bad guys do , yeah , whereas with jk rowling , it's in harry potter's a gray area it's . It's a gray area . It's very gray . It's less about who's doing it .
Speaker 1It's not about what you're doing and , like you said , who's doing it . Is it the evil person doing the magic ? What's ?
Speaker 2your motivation .
Speaker 1Right , because they kind of talk about it in Harry Potter of like , oh , the forbidden spells . They never really say as they're evil , it's just they're . They're forbidden because they do harm . But good people and bad people , both in the series , use the forbidden spells , yeah . So again , like you're saying it's it's oh yeah , he used it on , you know , the good guy used it . But it's oh yeah , he used it on , you know the good guy used it , but it's because he was stopping the good guy . Yeah , so in that world it's witchcraft as a whole is framed as a moral gray area and it's like you're saying , it's depending on how somebody uses it yeah , yeah , there's a lot in it , but you know what dude ?
Speaker 2Seek first the kingdom of God , and if you're doing that first and foremost , then you'll be all right .
Speaker 1We talk about it every time we get into these episodes of media .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1If this is not your main focal point and you watch it for entertainment but don't practice the things within the thing you're watching , then it's okay that you watch Harry Potter , as long as you are not making that your idol . It's not a salvation issue .
Speaker 2Yes , it's not a salvation issue . Keep in mind , if there's someone who's coming out of the occult and they're like screaming at the top of their lungs to all the Christians out there , like don't watch Harry Potter , don't read the books , you're inviting things into your house that you don't want there . Maybe don't involve yourself in that stuff for the sake of your brother in christ . You know what I mean . Like it's really hard . Once again we come back around to harry potter . It's a really great area , you know , and so I'm trusting the spirit to guide and lead us in all things . So that's what I would say to everybody Really bring it before the Lord . Like , hey , should I be doing this , should I be using this as a form of entertainment , and let the Spirit lead you .
Speaker 2It's kind of like what we talk about when we approach the Bible . When we see something in the Bible that's hard , do we try to explain it away so that we can keep our worldview , or do we change our worldview to fit , to line up with what the Bible says ? And it has to be that way . Whatever we are practicing or we're comfortable in , we need to test it up against God's Word and the Holy Spirit . And if the Holy Spirit and God's word is calling us to conform or to I guess I should say reform , then we need to do that . We don't need to try and explain away or justify away why we can do this , that or the other . All right , so all that to say . Fantasy books most sold copies in low fantasy , harry .
Speaker 1Potter , harry Potter , that was a lot to say .
Speaker 2A lot to say . Can we talk about movies for a minute ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I wanted to . Actually , I've got a list here Of movies . Well , I've got two different lists right . I have a list of the most popular fantasy movies and then the highest grossing fantasy movies .
Speaker 2Okay , I looked up highest grossing and can I just say it's kind of gross what the highest grossing fantasy movie is . I know right .
Speaker 1That's not what I expected . No , it's weird , right , really weird , okay , because like what people consider fantasy and what is labeled fantasy Within the community of fantasy .
Speaker 2What's considered fantasy ? You'd be like , oh yeah , that's at the top . But then when you look at strictly the labeling and what is actually out there , you're like what .
Speaker 1What's crazy , too , is I'm looking at this list and all of these movies have come out after the year 2000 .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1So let's just I'll kind of go through them a little bit quicker , Okay , Because there is a lot more we got to talk about . Yes , but number one , Frozen 2 .
Speaker 2Is the highest grossing fantasy film .
Speaker 1Yes , it made $1.45 billion dollars , that is stupid that that's the number one fantasy .
Speaker 2I blame all of you millennial moms taking your kids to the movie theaters to watch frozen 2 the thing is , is frozen 2 is not a bad movie ? No , I mean , it's all right , but I'm just saying like , where were you when Return of the King came ?
Speaker 1out hey , don't worry , don't worry . Number two this one made me mad . The moment I read it , I'm like is this is that even ? Is that really fantasy ? But based off what we've talked about , barbie is a fantasy movie . By technicality , barbie is high fantasy , low low fantasy . It's in our world . I thought it was . It's a little bit of both .
Speaker 1They do jump back and forth oh okay , so it's low fantasy so it's barbie and it's that thing of somebody from a different world that we were discussing going to the modern world , yeah , from their world I got you . So even though it doesn't really hold the typical aspects of fantasy that we think of , like magicians , orcs , elves , all that kind of stuff , it still holds that theming .
Speaker 2I saw this and I did not agree with it , but technically I think Avatar the movie Blue Alien , blue Alien Avatar yeah . Is technically . Someone was trying to make the argument that it's fantasy . It's not . It's science fiction . Yeah , it's sci-fi , but it could be . People make the argument that it is fantasy . It could be sci-fi fantasy . I guess you could say that . But the point is , if you include Avatar as fantasy , it would be number one , yeah , and it would be a billion dollars more than .
Speaker 1Frozen 2 , which is crazy . Well , Avatar is like the highest grossing film of all time .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1It's crazy dude , or was at one point . I don't know if it ever got knocked down , I think it still is .
Speaker 2Yeah , $2.9 billion yeah .
Speaker 1So , jeez Barbie , $1.44 billion , barely under Frozen 2 . I'm sure they'll like we got to get that top spot , so they'll probably re-release it at some point . What , barbie , barbie ? If they do that , they have to release Oppenheimer , oppenheimer Again , because there was that whole thing where it was like a stark difference of when both those movies came out and they were competing with one another . Yeah , oppenheimer is such a better movie than Barbie .
Speaker 2I it didn't really pull me in .
Speaker 1Yeah , you know what I mean . I like , I like a good Christopher Nolan flick and that movie you have to watch , like that is very , that is a IMAX movie , theater movie . You have to watch that movie in a theater , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , so if you're going by box office only , then Avatar is at $2.9 billion . It's the highest grossing film , jeez .
Speaker 1Yeah , now here you go . I always love this . It's like James Cameron has some of the most movies in the top 10 with Titanic and Avatar , and it's like in Avatar , he makes movies that make a lot of money but are forgettable . And the reason I say that name a character's name without struggling to remember it from Avatar Jake Sully . Besides Jake Sully , name another character I don't know , besides Jack and Rose . Name another character's name in Titanic I never watched Titanic .
Speaker 2There you go here . I just pulled up quickly highest grossing films worldwide , mm-hmm . The top four are Avatar , avengers , endgame Avatar , the Way of Water , titanic .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's gross . So three , james Cameron movies .
Speaker 2Yep and Frozen 2 shows up on this list . Guess I ?
Speaker 1think it's like nine right 15 . Okay , I was close .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's way low down the list , but we're talking about fantasy . Top of the list for fantasy .
Speaker 1So are you looking at the highest grossing right now for fantasy ? Do you have that list in front of you ? Are you able to see it ? I can pull it up , don't pull it up .
Speaker 2Oh , okay , fantasy . Do you have that list in front of you ? Are you able to see it ? I can pull it up . Don't pull it up . Okay , I was gonna say what do you think number three is ? It is um , we said frozen . Two , we said barbie . Uh , it is harry potter deathly hallows .
Speaker 1Part two . All right , you skipped one , that is number four oh , that's number four .
Speaker 2Yeah , is it frozen ? No , it Frozen , no .
Speaker 1Dang . See , it is fantasy , but you wouldn't consider this to be fantasy either . Okay , what is it ? The Super Mario Brothers movie . Oh dang it so . Number three Super Mario Brothers . Number four Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows , Part two . What did Mario Brothers gross out ? 1.36 billion , yeah .
Speaker 2And that is like a newer movie .
Speaker 1Yeah , 2023 . That's crazy
Popular Fantasy Video Games
Speaker 1.
Speaker 2That movie is really good , by the way , it is really good . I mean no shade on it , it's good .
Speaker 1And then number five is Frozen . Okay . Number six is Beauty and the Beast 2017 emma watson film . What ? Yeah , it's crazy , right , ridiculous then , this is gonna make you sick . It's beauty and the beast . Then number seven , lord of the rings , the return of the king at 1.15 billion but you know what Lord of the Rings like it .
Speaker 2Okay , return of the King and the trilogy itself .
Speaker 1Mm-hmm .
Speaker 2They have like records on their own as far as awards and stuff . Mm-hmm , they weren't the highest grossing , I'll give them that , but it's one of those movies that the fan base for those movies .
Speaker 1I'll be honest yes , those movies are timeless timeless .
Speaker 2It will keep on getting a new fan base , generation after generation , unlike beauty and the b ?
Speaker 1rb barbie , beauty and the beast now we're not talking about the cartoon , we're talking about the live action beauty and the beast . And it's so irritating because it's just like , like you said , like Lord of the Rings is not . It's never going to be forgotten , correct ? This Beauty and the Beast movie I forgot existed . I own this movie , it's on my shelf and I forgot it existed .
Speaker 2Yeah , when I was reading the list earlier today I was like wait a minute , the cartoon Beauty and the Beast . I didn't think it went that high because I forgot there was a live action .
Speaker 1Yeah , with what's-name in it Emma Watson . Yeah , emma Watson , number eight . Pirates of the Caribbean . Dead Man's Chest Interesting , that's the second one right , dead Man's Chest . No , that's like the fourth or fifth one right .
Speaker 2No , I thought that was the first one .
Speaker 1No , that's the Black Pearl . Curse of the Black Pearl is the first one .
Speaker 2Oh then Dead Man's one . No , that's the black pearl . Curse of the black pearl is the first one . Oh , the dead man's chest is number two . Then okay , because that's where they find the chest of davy jones .
Speaker 1Right , you're right . See , they never put numbers on them , because what is it is ? What's the third one ? Uh , world's end , right yeah , world's end .
Speaker 2Yeah , dead man's chest is number two okay because it's just like that is .
Speaker 1that is a good movie , that is . I just couldn't see that being on the top 10 highest grossing fantasy list . You know , yeah , at world's end , at world's end , yeah . And then this one was weird for me Number nine Aladdin 2019 . Live action with Will Smith . Really , yeah .
Speaker 2What's with these Disney remakes ? They ?
Speaker 1make a lot of money , but they're not great movies .
Speaker 2They're not great movies .
Speaker 1But because they are banking on the nostalgia .
Speaker 2Yeah , on . The entire generation that grew up watching them are now adults , and not only are they going to go watch them , but if they have kids , they're going to pay money for their kids to go watch them .
Speaker 1Go watch it as well .
Speaker 2Right in adopting them into that film , you know well and you got to think about it like millennials , because we grew up with movies , like it's probably one of the biggest movie watching generations , you know what I mean . Like Gen Z , they're moving away from going to the theaters and they're all about streaming services , yeah , and watching everything on their phone . So millennials are really the holdouts for , like , going and seeing things live in theater . Yeah , you know . Yeah , I do it all the time . Yeah , that's what I think . At least I could be wrong , but I'm just pulling that out of my pocket and saying this is how it really is , you know .
Speaker 1And then number 10 , Pirates of the Caribbean on Stranger Tides .
Speaker 2Okay , that one's like the fourth or fifth . Yeah , that's where I was getting confused , it's weird that the Curse of the Black Pearl is not on there Is not on there , but I guess it was so new that people didn't give it a chance .
Speaker 1No , I think that probably got a lot of occult following . After it came out it was home release and then , of course , after everybody watched it loves it , then they got to go see the second one , when it comes out Dead Man's Chest , dead Man's .
Speaker 2Chest . It's weird that At World's End didn't get on that list , though I guess it's because Dead Man's Chest wasn't as good as Curse of the Black Pearl and so people were like , eh , I'm probably not going to watch the third one .
Speaker 1I'll be honest , like you said , I think that that should have been a single movie . I mean , in all honesty , they didn't get better .
Speaker 2I will say that the stories happening were not super great . The character Jack Sparrow was great .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's the only reason that they made five movies , yeah , and I think they realized that to a degree they're like we like this character . So they did the trilogy and then they started doing individual movies . Yeah , degree , they're like we like this character . So they did the trilogy and then they started doing individual movies . Yeah , and I think everybody kind of that franchise's movies . The first one was great and it was either equal to or less than , in my opinion . I like those first three movies , yeah , yeah , but none of them were ever better than curse of the black pearl I agree , but dead man's chest does give us that banger of a song , the calypso and davy jones song .
Speaker 2Oh man , that is pretty good . Yeah , eerie chime , if you will yeah , so that's it .
Speaker 1That is the top 10 highest grossing fantasy films . There you go . Let's talk real quick about the popular ones . All right , which is funny to me , because it's just like all right , so you have again . Beauty the beast , aladdin , you know .
Speaker 2Frozen 2 frozen 1 by technicality .
Speaker 1These did make a lot of money , but then you look at what people actually consider to be fantasy and it's the Lord of the Rings trilogy . Right , that's number one . Well , these aren't in any particular order , but on my list this is number one , Wizard of Oz .
Speaker 2Let's be honest In our hearts . Lord of the Rings is number one .
Speaker 1Yeah , harry Potter . That's a huge one for people . We talked about it a lot . We have 20 minutes ago . We have talked a lot about Harry Potter , pan's Labyrinth If you've ever seen that , I love that movie , dude .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Pan's Labyrinth . It's rough to watch . It's rough , but it's a good movie .
Speaker 2It is pretty good , I guess .
Speaker 1Spirit of the Way . If you're talking about anime , that is a huge one .
Speaker 2I've never seen it .
Speaker 1We need to sit down and watch Spirit of the Way at some point . It is the highest grossing cartoon ever no Na Zao is .
Speaker 2Do I Na Zao ? What is Na Zao ? I have no idea . I just know that it is the highest grossing cartoon . It's new , oh okay , brand new , or maybe Nazal 2 .
Speaker 1At one point , spirited Away was the highest grossing animated film of all time . Okay , yeah , yeah , anime Animated .
Speaker 2Okay , not anime , so animated Okay . I got you .
Speaker 1That's putting together all possible cartoons , so Nazal 2 grossed $2.2 billion .
Speaker 2It came out this year , okay , and that's obviously a worldwide box office , but I've never heard of this movie .
Speaker 1Nazal 2 . Nazal 2 .
Speaker 2Never heard , never heard of it . I have to look at it or look into it . Nizal , I don't know . It's a china , it's chinese , but yeah , it's , it's weird so number six , the princess bride .
Speaker 1Princess bride , you know what I mean ? Come on , dude , it is a very good honorable mention , not an honorable mention . And number seven oh number seven on this list of just whatever . These are just examples of some of the most popular fantasy movies . Uh , how's moving castle ? Another studio ghibli miyazaki film I've heard of it uh . Chronicles of narnia . It's gonna be different .
Speaker 2It's gonna be rock and roll .
Speaker 1Shut up it's so stupid that's a little little .
Speaker 2It's a quote from the director for the new Netflix Chronicles of . Narnia Gross .
Speaker 1And then the NeverEnding Story .
Speaker 2It's the never-ending story .
Speaker 1So that's , you know , some really popular examples of fantasy movies .
Speaker 2And I've seen almost all of them .
Speaker 1Almost all of them , and I agree with number one . I'm sure you do , but then you'll have to watch Spirit of the Way . It's very , very Japanese , but not in a negative way .
Speaker 2Let me ask you this Is there sushi and is there sumo wrestling ?
Speaker 1Yes .
Speaker 2Is there actually sumo wrestling ? Yes , is there actually sumo wrestling . There's no . How Japanese , is it ?
Speaker 1then , jairus , why don't you come over to my house , watch it and find out ? All right , are there , samurais ? There's action .
Speaker 2If there's no shogun , I'm not going to show my guns .
Speaker 1It is my second favorite Ghibli film . What's your first favorite Ghibli film ? Princess Mononoke Dumb .
Speaker 2Okay , no , no offense . I'm sure it's great . I've never seen it Okay .
Speaker 1You want to talk about these books . Top 10 fantasy books of all time . Okay , lord of the Rings , yep , the Song of ice and fire . If you don't know what that is , a game of thrones . Oh , okay , I was like the wheel of time , wheel of time , yep , yep , uh , mistborn , mistborn . Never heard of that .
Speaker 2I have heard about it today .
Speaker 1When I was reading for the stormlight archive never heard that one . The king killer chronicle . Kingiller Chronicle that rolls over your tongue we've talked about number seven , which is his dark materials . If you don't know , if you don't know what that is the golden compass oh yeah , golden compass , that's right . Yeah , that's right yep , the first law Wizard of Earthsea , which has been adapted into a studio Ghibli film , the Tales of Earthsea . Why is ?
Speaker 2none of the Harry Potter books showing up in this .
Speaker 1That's interesting right .
Speaker 2That is interesting . I would have thought that would have been at the top , considering it sold the most copies .
Speaker 1Top 10 based off of popular , that is . My list might be crappy , all right . Moving on to video game , all right .
Speaker 2It's like hold on , we're down to like number seven and we haven't even brought up a single Harry Potter book yet . All right , so maybe it's because they burned them all .
Speaker 1They did burn all those books , all those Baptists .
Speaker 2Yep , they did . That's why it has the most copies sold .
Speaker 1It's because they're always buying them to burn . It was a reverse baptism .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1What ? Yeah , Instead of water , it was fire . Oh yeah , yeah , yeah . So anyways , let's talk about these video games . You shall be refined by fire . All right . Video games All right . So number one go ahead . Press your button . I know you have one for it , number one go ahead .
Speaker 2Press your button . I know you have one for it , do I ? I don't know . I don't know what the game is .
Speaker 1Yes , you do . Yes , first Brother . The Elder Scrolls V Skyrim For .
Speaker 2Sweden . That's my da-da-da song . I don't sing the actual lyrics to that .
Speaker 1Is that your Pearl Jam ?
Speaker 2Yeah , that's mine . Yeah , the score for .
Speaker 1Elder Scrolls .
Speaker 2Skyrim is my Pearl Jam , da-da-da , skyrim is my pearl . Do , do , do , do , do do . Never king , never king . The defeat's a skull thing . Nibbufta , nibbufta . It's a pile of .
Speaker 1Yeah , skyrim , that's the only one . No , no , it's just . I didn't play a lot of it , but I can recognize how good it is .
Speaker 2I played a lot of it . Well , so the difference between me and you and how we game you play a game for three weeks and then a new one comes out , or you find out about a new one .
Speaker 1No , not entirely . I will play a game through as much as I feel it , I'm done with it , or if I beat it , you know what I mean if I get what I feel like the value okay if I'm not into a game , I'm not going to force myself to go through it yeah for you . You'll buy a game and you will play , fix , hyper , fixate on that one game for a very large amount of time .
Speaker 2Yes , this is true .
Speaker 1And I tend to jump to game , to game . Yes you do , so I'm always playing something new .
Speaker 2There is a time and you played Skyrim for like six years straight , yeah there's a time where , like last year actually , I felt like every other month you were like , hey , we need to download this game and play it . I was like , okay , I guess so .
Speaker 1Speaking of that Helldivers , have you heard Two Helldivers 2 ?
Speaker 2Yeah , they introduced another alien .
Speaker 1No , the aliens . We didn't defend it and Super Earth got taken over and now we're defending on Super Earth .
Speaker 2What ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I guess I need to get back in there like so you're actually on super earth and they've added like gun customization , where you can add attachments and stuff to your guns and change the stats . You guys can't see how my eyes lit up . You got really excited . Oh man , yeah , I heard about it while I was on vacation . Like I need to get back into hell divers . There goes my late nights defending super earth . Well , we had so much fun playing helldivers and then it just kind of like they weren't updating it quick enough so we kind of got bored with it .
Speaker 2Well , I think it was you and I were getting bored with the fact that we didn't have a full fire team . Yeah , you have to have four players to play this game . Like you're not getting the full benefit of completing the I mean the missions Mm-hmm , Unless you've got all four people and so , like spawning in two random guys to come and help us , it just wasn't .
Speaker 1Yeah , After a while it got boring , so but anyways , helldivers , great game , yeah , but that's sci-fi and we're talking about fantasy , that's right . So number two , the Witcher 3 , wild Hunt . Witcher 3 is the Witcher is wild , like it's good .
Speaker 2It's good , it's good .
Speaker 1I thought RuneScape would have been number two . Uh-huh , I bet . Number three is Baldur's Gate 3 , which I think a lot of these are more which is a naughty game .
Speaker 2Yes and no , it can be it can be it can , it cannot but they have the settings to turn off the naughty stuff .
Speaker 1So there you go . So turn off the naughty stuff and play balder's gate yeah be holy as christ is holy yep , uh number four , and I've played a lot of this game uh . Legend of Zelda , breath of the Wild .
Speaker 2Yeah , I get the Breath of the Wild every time I step outside , so I don't have to play it .
Speaker 1Wow , you can bring your Switch with you outside and play Breath of the Wild . Leave it . No , it was like where you See that bow over there , yeah .
Speaker 2I live Breath of the Wild . I need to shoot more .
Speaker 1I need to shoot more .
Speaker 2It was raining , I couldn't go outside , uh-huh .
Speaker 1Excuses . You're right , but , like Zelda , for the longest time was a very kind of not linear but more condensed adventures where you were going into you know dungeons that were very room to room and you know the open world was . You know it was large , but it was very , you know , not open world . You know what I mean ? Yeah , yeah , it was an open , smaller world , and Breath of the Wild was massive . It was huge and you could just go wherever and do whatever .
Speaker 2So I've told this story before to you , but my most memorable Zelda gameda game memory if you will , is not from an actual zelda game . Back when online game websites like free to play online games , like flash games flash games , yeah , thank you were popular . I played this game and it was it stole zelda is what it did , but then it incorporated a bunch of slapstick humor from relatable stuff from our world into the game and so and one of the things is , there's a mcdonald's in the game and your character goes in .
Speaker 2they're like we're all out of meat for our hamburgers . Can you help ? Things is . There's a McDonald's in the game and your character goes in . They're like we're all out of meat for our hamburgers . Can you help us find some ? And you go out of the game and you go and you do stuff . You find rotten flesh , you take it to McDonald's and they're like this will probably make pretty good burgers .
Speaker 1So it's just a parody Zelda game , dungeon crawler but you're getting these items and bringing them to McDonald's .
Speaker 2Yeah , and the way the game is set up is there's no other meat in the entire game . It literally you find some rotten flesh , you take it in . They're like we'll make hamburgers out of this because we're McDonald's .
Speaker 1That's it .
Speaker 2That's my most memorable Zelda .
Speaker 1You need to play a real Zelda game . Yeah , you're looking at me with disgust . No , it's just like . Breath of the Wild literally takes a lot of inspiration from Skyrim . Oh , it's very like . If you looked at it , it's like a third person and you can do third person in Skyrim , but it's Nintendo's Skyrim .
Speaker 2Can you find Dwemer Ruins ?
Speaker 1Yes .
Speaker 2No , you can't Lie . That statement was a lie .
Speaker 1Jairus .
Speaker 2A lie . It did not give me eagle powers . I felt no nutrients .
Speaker 1Okay , go ahead . So , anyways , moving on . I just finished the , so they're remaking this series , this game . I just recently finished the second one , final Fantasy VII . It's so good , just talking about Final Fantasy ?
Speaker 2I actually I guess it is fantasy .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2I don't know why , when I think of Final Fantasy , even though it's in the title , I always think sci-fi , for some reason .
Speaker 1Well , final Fantasy VII does have aspects of fantasy and aspects of sci-fi in it , yeah . But VII feels futuristic , kind of apocalyptic world . But then you go out and it's more fantasy with creatures out in the world it's just weird . When you're in the city it feels sci-fi . It's a mix of both , but most Final Fantasy games are more fantasy . That one made a difference of making it a little bit more futuristic .
Speaker 2Fair .
Speaker 1But , yes , fantastic storytelling . Okay so , and uh , you know who made the guy who made uh final fantasy 7 ? You know what else he made ? Uh , no , he's my hero .
Speaker 2He made kingdom hearts oh yeah , dang it , I'm freaking out dang it .
Speaker 2So another one , and I think this will be the last one we talk about world , of warcraft world of warcraft , or wow , wow , can I just say out of all the games that we've talked about on this podcast , life sucking , slash , controlling world of Warcraft would be number one . Mm-hmm , when it comes to people that their lives revolve around World of Warcraft , definitely that's like the highest group of people , like the most people that their life revolves around the game that they play . Mm-hmm , it's World of Warcraft people .
Speaker 1Yes and no . I think it's fallen off a bit . The new major one right now , funny enough , is Final Fantasy XIV , which is also an MMORPG .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1So that one is a little bit more life-sucking than WoW at this point , I guess but like with WoW , because they still update , they still release dungeons , I mean yeah .
Speaker 2It's set on a schedule . No , I get it . I'm just saying like the community has grown up with it .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And so there's guys that have been playing WoW since they were 12 . Yeah , and they're still playing , do you remember ?
Speaker 1I'm not going to call out any names , but we went to a friend's wedding , yeah , and the best man at the wedding was giving a speech and he was talking about how he met the groom . And he talked about it was that they met on World of Warcraft and we were all sitting there and I would go just real loud , I go wow , and nobody got the joke and I looked like the biggest jerk .
Speaker 2Yeah , you did , I officiated the wedding . I was like it caught me off guard . I was like what , wait a minute , what ? Here ? I was thinking they were childhood friends and he was like he came into town to be with his friends . Like no , we just were best friends . We became friends like two years ago . We met in a chat room on wow . I was like oh , wow , cool , that's cool . But uh , yeah , definitely surprised me . There you go , anyways , you got any other games ?
Speaker 1No , that's pretty much what we've got on Fantasy .
Speaker 2And just so everybody knows the game that we were playing forever ago , what ? Was it called Honor , blade of Honor . Oh man Jeez , I forgot what it's called Throne of Honor .
Speaker 1Oh man , jeez , I forgot what . It's called Throne of Liberty , throne of Liberty .
Speaker 2We're not playing it anymore .
Speaker 1No , we stopped playing . It was funny because we played that , we heavily like we played it one night . No , like we played it a lot of nights , but like the last time we played it the next day . We recorded an episode of the podcast and heavily promoted it , yeah , and after we heavily promoted it on that episode , we never played it again .
Speaker 2No , we played it one more time , did we ? We played it one more time , and then I think I got on once or twice more after that , but then yeah .
Speaker 1Well , part of the problem is is your computer can only only have one game on it at a time .
Speaker 2Yeah , and now we're getting to the point where newer games coming out they won't Even fit on your computer . They won't even do it , they won't run it . I've got to get a different card , or just a whole new computer , or just a whole new computer . Yeah , there you go , there you go .
Speaker 1Isn't the big game right now on your computer ? Age of Mythology . Age of Mythology Retold baby . Yeah .
Speaker 2And me and Bigfoot have a lot of fun playing it .
Speaker 1Every time I come over he's like hey , jairus , have you heard about Age of Mythology ? Have you ever played Age of Mythology ? This is how he says it .
Speaker 2Hey , Jairus , have you ever heard of Age of Mythology , Retal ? Have you ever played it before ?
Speaker 1Hey , Jairus , watch me put in this code . And now the goblin plays soccer .
Speaker 2Did you know that if you use centaurs as your backup line , that they can help you ?
Speaker 1I love how you talk about your son being like he's like an 18 year old man who lives in his parents basement when he comes up and starts talking to me about it .
Speaker 2That's what my automatic go-to is is this guy who's dedicating his life to this game and that's why he knows so much . But it's just , it's my son and he's played maybe a total of 20 hours over the past couple of months and he just he saturates , he soaks up all the information playing the game .
Speaker 1So it's crazy , but yeah and he's like he is nowhere near the . I'm not gonna call your son's age out or anything , but he is nowhere near currently the age of 18 . Yeah , he's not in the double digits , so he is in the single digits and he is . So he is young and he's like you said he is enthralled in this game .
Speaker 2Yes , so total side note but has to do with fantasy .
Speaker 1Valheim got an update valheim man that talk about a game I paid for and played once .
Speaker 2Yeah you played it once , but , dude , it was so much fun , I need to start playing that again . That's a fun game . Viking Minecraft that's what it is , viking Minecraft .
Speaker 1Anyways . So we've talked about fantasy , talked about fantasy . So , tyler , this is your transition . We are now transitioning into the Corner . Step inside , if you dare . Shadows move , mysteries whisper and the unknown awaits . Welcome to the Corner .
Speaker 2The winged serpent is the most cunning of all things , created Long before computers . In the modern era of man , the creature craftier than all other creatures plagued humanity . We as a species have faced many adversaries throughout our history , but never has one been so ingrained into our collective mind . Some cultures revile and curse the beast , while others , in fear of retaliation , worship them . We now dare to discuss the reality of what is known today as the dragon .
The Corner: Dragons in World Mythology
Speaker 2Talking about dragons , y'all .
Speaker 1Wow , what the heck was that , did you ?
Speaker 2like that .
Speaker 1Yeah , that was pretty good right yeah , so chat gbt , that wrote that . Oh , I wrote that .
Speaker 2oh , you wrote that that . Okay , I've been getting some inspiration from other , but some of it is like giving us almost a story intro , and so our themed intros .
Speaker 1There we go .
Speaker 2Yeah , give a little bit of a story to kind of highlight what you're going to be talking about . And I was like you know what , I want to try it out . So here I am for the corner trying it out .
Speaker 1Wow , and you sure did try it .
Speaker 2We definitely tried . No , no , that was good . So , uh , dragons , heck , yeah , man . Uh , so dragons is one of those things that is global , right , every culture has dragon stories . Uh , every culture acknowledges dragons as something that is real . And here we are in the modern era and we're like no , dragons are fantasy , they're made up .
Speaker 1There's no such thing as a flying serpent that breathes fire , and to that I say you don't know that no , it is , though it's crazy because it is one of the few mythological creatures that we speak of and talk about . When we're talking about you know , the unknown . Correct that there is evidence of dragons everywhere . Yes , like it documented in places that you know . Oh , China's talking about dragons , but so is Egypt and you know wherever else , and there's not really any way Mesoamerican the Europeans Mesopotamian , which is Middle East .
Speaker 1And there's ways that , okay , there's a possibility that these people could have exchanged this information by word of mouth of what they thought they saw . Yeah , but not in a way that would be convincing that . Okay . Oh , some guy showed up and talked about a dragon , and now that's the whole entire culture . Yeah , yeah , some guy showed up and talked about a dragon , and now that's the whole entire culture . Yeah , yeah , no , we're seeing documentation of dragons in places that are not communicating with one another yeah , and it's important to bring up that .
Speaker 2Most have the ability to fly and some have the ability to breathe fire , and each culture has their own name for it , but the description is similar across , so it would be the same family , animal family it just has different names depending on where you go , right . So what I love is the hardcore bible guides that are like . The term dinosaur didn't show up until the 1800s , before everyone was calling these giant reptiles dragons . So there's one argument for you there If you believe dinosaurs existed , then you're just a part of a small group of people in the grand scheme of humanity that call them dinosaurs , so dragons . If you want to go the super technical route there , you go , go . But then we get into the more mystical side of stuff right , where I mean there's stories of these ancient , powerful dragons and , depending on what culture you go to , they're either good or bad , you know . So , like I , I've got a couple here . You may have some notes on these too , but most of my notes are references to the dragons in the Bible .
Speaker 2Okay , so the Meshussu are associated with the Babylonian god Marduk , and they're I mean , they're a dragon-like creature . The Dinwen is an Egyptian dragon and it is considered a serpent that breathes fire . It is a negative force , or it's a , not a . It's not good , it's bad . They do have some good dragon-esque characters in Egyptian mythology .
Speaker 1I do actually have a few examples on mine . Okay , the Faneer is the Norse . Did you talk about this ?
Speaker 2Not yet .
Speaker 1Okay , go ahead then . No , no , I don't have that one . You go , okay , okay . So the Norse has Faneerir , a cursed dwarf turned dragon guards treasure and is slain by a hero okay , is that from the volsungs um volsung saga it doesn't say okay .
Speaker 1In india they have the um for ritra . A drought causing serpent is slain by Indra to release the water . So and I got one more . In Japan they have the water dragon . Water dragons are wise and divine guardians of rivers and rain . So still kind of like stories , examples , more characters than dragons in a general sense . Yeah .
Speaker 2What was the name of that dragon ? The norse one ?
Speaker 2it's spelled f-a-f-f-a-f-n-i-r fafnir , fafnir okay , I knew it sounded familiar . I was like what the heck , why can't ? I think that's why it's familiar . Fafnir , I believe , is where tolkien took creative liberties for his dragon because of that idea of like , is super greedy for gold and has a gold horde that it guards . Yeah , could be wrong , but I think I think that's right anyways . Uh , yeah , I put the , I just put the Europeans they all associate dragons in a negative sense . So from the Celts to the Gaelic societies , to the Gaelic culture , to the Germanic cultures , they all associate dragons in a negative way . Tyrants associated with hoarding gold or treasure , the Mesoamericans , so the Aztecs and the Mayans , they have a deity dragon , quetzalcoatl .
Speaker 1Axolotl .
Speaker 2Quetzalcoatl , axolotl he is . He symbolizes , he's the deity symbol of creation , knowledge , reign and civilization . And the Chinese dragon , azure , is worshipped as a deity Azure , azure , and they use dragons in their constellations and it's a zodiac symbol . I've been seeing that circle around the internet . People are like why is it the zodiac signs for the Chinese calendar ? 11 of them are all animals that we know today , that exist , and then one's a fictional animal , right ? So there's that . And then on top of that is Marco Polo's journal entries and he talks about how the emperor of japan or not japan , the emperor of china , his buggy or whatever he is , is pulled by dragons . He calls them dragons , giant reptilian creatures they were just um .
Speaker 1What is it ? Komodo dragons pulling it just massive komodo dragons pulling it .
Speaker 2Just some massive Komodo dragons . Yeah , that could fly , that can fly . Yeah , no , but I mean , dude , they're all over the world . Yeah , let's get into some Bible stuff , mm-hmm .
Speaker 1So while the Bible doesn't feature dragons in the modern sense , the word dragon appears multiple times , especially in older English translations like the KJV , the King James Version .
Speaker 2And the reason for that is the word in Hebrew is tanin , which translated the best translation would be dragon , dragon-like creature . It's not necessarily to say that the only way to translate this is to call it a dragon , but the best way to translate the word tanin from Hebrew would be a serpent , a giant , serpent-like creature .
Speaker 1These references often symbolize chaos , evil or desolation . Yeah , probably most of it , in Revelations , if I'm not mistaken , even though I'm about to call out of Isaiah .
Speaker 2Yeah , I was going to say there's like two or three verses in Revelation that use the actual word dragon in it , but most of the terminology for or most of the times used for dragons in the Old Testament .
Speaker 1So I have Isaiah 27 , verse one . So I have Isaiah 27 , verse 1 . In that day , the Lord with his sword , and great and strong sword , shall punish Leviathan and he shall slay the dragon that is in
Dragons in Biblical Context
Speaker 1the sea .
Speaker 2Crazy . A lot of people call the Leviathan an ancient dinosaur or dragon . If you will , it could be Nessie Well , that's what I was saying A plesiosaurus .
Speaker 1I think is what they're called A pleodio Yep .
Speaker 2A pleodio . Yeah , one of the verses I have is Ezekiel 29 , verse 3 . The context is he's talking about Egypt and the Pharaoh of Egypt , but it says Speak and say thus saith the Lord . God Behold , I am against thee , pharaoh , king of Egypt , the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers , which hath said my river is my own and I have made it for myself . And then he goes on talking about the destruction that will come , but that word in there is dragon the Tanin . So that's there . And Ezekiel , what else you got ?
Speaker 1So I have Revelations , chapter 20 , verse 2 . And he laid hold on the dragon , that old serpent which is the devil and Satan .
Speaker 2Yeah , yep , and then Psalms 74 , 13 . Thou didst divide the sea by the strength Th thou breakest the heads of the dragons in the waters . So to me it seems like a lot of Jewish understanding , for dragons would have been sea beasts . It would seem it's one of two things it's a creature in the unknown of the ocean or it's a creature that lives in the wild , like way out there . Remember in episode one , when we talked about satyrs , how the Bible references a creature that could be translated as satyr , and it's that same concept . It's like these really weird folkloric , mythological , like creatures that we see pop up in the Bible . They always pop up in places of desolation , like the wilderness , totally destroyed cities , just stuff like that , where there's no civilization . So it's interesting that that's how it is for all these creatures that we today call mythological , but for the reader of the time , very real , very , very real . Anyways , what else you got ?
Speaker 1That's pretty much . It Just one kind of closing statement . Okay , kind of closing statement , Okay . In a Christian worldview , dragons often represent evil forces , but they are always defeated by God , his people or divine justice . From ancient Babylon to the end of days in Revelation , the message remains evil may appear fearsome , but it is no match for God's power .
Speaker 2I agree with that and I want to give , I guess , connections here . So Satan is referred to as the serpent who goes and tempts Adam and Eve in the garden , and in Revelation he's referred to as the dragon or the serpent . And in Old Testament , before Christ , the biggest villain to Israel is Babylon , and they look at Babylon as the most wicked right . Wicked right . The main deity , marduk , the god or the patron god of the Babylonians , was depicted as a dragon , or dragons were associated with Marduk In the New Testament .
Speaker 2The Romans are the main opposition to the people of God , so much so that they persecute them and around . Second I think it's the second century , maybe getting into the third century the Romans start adapting the dragon head as their standard for some of their legions and they're considered the dragon , and so it's . It's kind of interesting to see that that , like these forces , these kingdoms that are built up and who are in opposition to the chosen people of god , take the symbol , the symbol of the dragon , and scripture calls out satan as being the dragon . And so here we are and it's . You know . No , I'm not throwing any shade to any culture that looks at dragons in a positive sense . I mean , my sons love how to train your dragon , right the movies right . But when it comes to the realism or the reality of dragons , there's a very good chance that they are a demonic force of evil right , not necessarily a strictly biological creature , more so , a demonic force right that can take on physical form . So it's something to think about , in my opinion .
Speaker 1That's all I have to say about dragons , and that's all I have to say on this episode .
Speaker 2That's all I have to say on this episode . Besides , christ is Lord .
Speaker 1And the kingdom is now .
Speaker 2We are the you next time , oh my God .
Speaker 1Oh man Even flow .
Speaker 2Even flow , just a bunch of noise . Oh my gosh .
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